General Discussion Forwards Thread

Discussion in 'General Warriors Discussion' started by ryno, Aug 22, 2016.



  1. ryno
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    ryno 1st Grade Fringe

    Just a question to all the couch coaches out there.

    How would you improve the lack of go forward in the Warriors?

    Is it the players that we have, is it the delivery from dummy half, is it our attacking strategies and shapes, is it fitness, is it heart, is it mongrel, is it technique, is it the balance in our squad, is it a lack of footwork, is it our general kicking, is it a combination of things?

    A couple of things I would change:
    - The back 3 needs more balance, if we play Mannering at 13 then we need an offloading beast on the fringes to get some punch on the edge. Hoffman, Mannering and Thompson are all a bit vanilla for me. I would much rather have Matulino, Mannering and Thompson.
    - My starting props would be Vete and Gavet. These two are no nonsense players, have a bit of mongrel in them on attack and defense, and they run hard. Vete also has an offload which I would encourage, Gavet needs to work on his play the ball though as it is quite slow.
    - Lillyman has to go. Has been a wonderful servant but he is such a handbreak when he runs it up. Doesn't even get a very fast play the ball.
    - We need players supporting the ball carrier, no one up nonsense, put some doubt into the opposition!
    - More angles, more offloads, more dimensions. We are so one dimensional when it comes to our attack, if we are losing the physical battle then we need to try different things.
    - Impact from the bench, impact on the edges.
    - Forwards on the wings. Wingers should only be doing a hit up when our forwards are tired, not consistently taking the first, second and third hit ups off our line. I would love to see Manu moved to the edge or to the middle. Give him a preseason to work things out and give him a crack in the forwards!
    - Also please get rid of that block play off the scrums and tap restarts, it doesn't fool anyone and it just increases the chance the receiver will drop the ball.
     
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  2. Jordan G
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    Jordan G Warriors 1st Grader

    What we lack in three words.

    Brains, technique, teamwork
     
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  3. brightman
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    brightman 1st Grade Fringe

    In 2 words 'proper coach'
     
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  4. Warriorholic
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    Warriorholic 1st Grade Fringe

    No support runners, bring back the Price and the Rapira off load at the line putting a player into space.

    It's the little things, we don't fight in the tackle, we submit. We don't take a few steps forward like other teams, sometimes we even go backwards to play the ball.

    We are too polite, we are showing teams to much respect, we just have zero aggression.
    Nice guys finish last.........
     
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  5. eudebrito
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    eudebrito |-|

    Aggression and legitimate size up front.

    Matulino is the biggest but runs with the least venom, puts up stats over the course of a game, due to having the biggest motor.
    Gavet is good for a couple of decent carries, but looks like a rake for a front rower.
    Vete goes pretty hard, but does his stupid lead with the hip, never going to break the line with that technique. You can’t use any footwork leading with your arse.
    Lillyman has always been good on the 2nd carry after a big run, but he can’t get a set started on his own.
    Lisone tries to bump people off but is small and prone to dropping it. Sam Rapira was an undersized prop but was damn effective until his body started breaking apart, its not an easy gig.
    Gubb carries worse than most centres.
    Sipley probably isn’t ready.
    Sao looked like he aged a decade as soon as he arrived at mt smart – that guy needs to turn it up next season or be cut immediately.

    These are our props and they will all be back next year, barring some early releases.
    On defence, i think they might have improved a bit, weirdly, other than the storm game atrocity, they've been okay on that side of the ball, even if Vete is the only one who can put a hit on.
     
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  6. Lord Gnome of Howick MBE
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    Lord Gnome of Howick MBE Warriors 1st Grader

    Matulino - second row or second prop
    Lillyman - second prop
    Vete - needs to run straight and not enter the line sideways on
    Lisone - runs hard but is a little undersized
    Gavet/Gubb/Sao are depth only

    So, unless we sign a big prop who is going to do the damage with the first up run, its really up to someone like Vete or one of the youngsters to step up and take that role.

    Matulino, Lillyman, Vete and Lisone all play like the second prop - they can make good metres and get a quick play the ball - but none of them is carting it up like a bastard and taking the three/four man tackle.
     
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  7. bruce
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    bruce Warriors 1st Grader Contributor

    He always was a Claytons coach, nothing disrespectful to Cappy but that is an undeniable fact. He might be a genuine coach one day, and I hope he will be. I think a lot of our problems could be improved with better coaching, does anybody agree?
     
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  8. Jordan G
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    Jordan G Warriors 1st Grader

    Lisone needs support runners when he hits it up. Has good passing skills, and even if he doesn't pass it, just having guys in support will cause the defenders to hang off a bit and that way his smaller frame won't be as much of an issue because he won't be confronted by a 3 man gang tackle.
     
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  9. bruce
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    bruce Warriors 1st Grader Contributor

    I agree, it isn't so much the players but the systems that seem to be failing.
     
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  10. 6 Again
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    6 Again 1st Grade Fringe

    Good idea to give this topic it's own thread.

    It's obviously a complex issue and there's no magic bullet, if there's one area that can be addressed right away without the need for recruitment or wholesale changes it's errors coming out of our end.

    If were wasting energy defending our errors then there's less energy left in the tank for the forwards to help us dominate field position, the opposition forwards also benefit from having to defend less and thereby have more energy on defense themselves to stifle our go forward, it really is a double edged sword.

    We know when we complete at >75% were more often than not well in the game even against more powerful forward packs. Last week against the Cowboys we completed at 57% which must surely be a season low, the week before 69%.

    There's an area we can look to improve that will at the very least have us getting parity through the forwards and give a chance of winning the game.
     
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  11. Lord Gnome of Howick MBE
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    Lord Gnome of Howick MBE Warriors 1st Grader

    The lack is support runners is definitely an issue
     
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  12. ryno
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    ryno 1st Grade Fringe

    It was so refreshing watching Ata support the ball carrier nearly every single time, and actually looking like he wants the ball as well.
     
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  13. rugged
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    rugged 1st Grade Fringe

    Cappy just doesn't seem to notice the imbalance in our forwards... if he did Sipley would have been give another run. Heck I would even give Lane another crack just to see something different.
     
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  14. jonno
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    jonno Warriors 1st Grader

    If we're talking about motivation for the forwards to go forward, then we need better field kicking/chasing by the backs to earn easy metres, and better ball security by the backs to stop giving the other fuckers easy field position.

    Can't ask the impossible of the forwards when the backs are looking for the big highlights package and not playing the team game.
     
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  15. Blain
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    Blain 1st Grade Fringe

    Beat me to it. He was a constant hanging beside/behind the player being tackled, waiting for an off load. On one occasion it actually looked like one of our forwards was actually surprised to see someone waiting for the offload, but held onto it because they weren't expecting it!

    We're use to our sides in the last few seasons sitting on their arses, if a offload comes they just use it as another hit up, not using it to attack. That's more likely a coaching tactic more than anything.
     
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  16. Zarjaz
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    Zarjaz 1st Grade Fringe

    Lack of completions, giving away lame penalties, lack of support play and constantly giving the ball up on the first hitup is not helping the forward pack gain any momentum… I think the games where the forward pack looked to hold it's own against the opposition were the ones where the completions were high amongst the whole team, not having to defend like a mofo.
     
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  17. Jay M
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    Jay M Warriors 1st Grader Contributor

    Combination of bad coaching, under-enthusiastic players/poor work ethic, and poor structures from day dot for a lot of these guys coming into grade.

    How many of this club have come through from our U20s, which traditionally was a monstrous pack one out running, 60-70 metre sets were common, and offloads off the back of size dominating the middle, coupled with higher possession counts because we had field position. When they get into first grade - it typically shows.

    All of our forwards can put up good stats. Every one of them. But not a single one of them is going to be super consistent because of a lack of effort generally in our pack, McFadden's inability to put the right structures in place, and the lack of identification that they need them.

    Generally speaking, a warriors set of six might look like this (when we receive the ball in our own 10 or 20). Fusitua, or Lolohea, or whoever is FB hits up. Manu takes tackle 2. Kata or Maumalo might take tackle 3. Pretty much all one out running, and there is very little to like about the play the ball speed generally (Manu can be good, but generally the others are slow to their feet). By now our forwards are back onside, but they're not really in a useful structure or line to make much of it from this point. So tackle 3, the dummy half passes to Lillyman, or Matulino, or Vete or whoever who runs it straight up the guts to do their work, with noone supporting them on the inside or outside, and no-one to offload to. Then tackle five, the backs decide to push the ball to an edge and see if there's an overlap. Inevitably, there isn't because the play the ball was too laboured and Hoffman or Thompson or Ayshford or Kata will take the hitup. Then SJ gets the ball and bombs it in between their fullback and winger.

    Looking at some of the more effective packs in the competition... our middle has no structure to bend the line. and being honest, it hasn't had the structure or work-rate since Packer was here. Packer and Matulino used to run together. Packer had the ability to pass at the line when 2-3 tacklers were committed to him, allowing Matulino to hit the line at pace with no-one directly in front of him. This then allowed him to make half breaks, and use his offload to a support player. Contrast this to the likes of the Bulldogs who use Graham, Klemmer, Tolman, Kasiano, Eastwood in the middle of the field to interchange passes, and use footwork at the line. Or the sharks who get over the advantage line and get quick play-the-balls. Or the under-rated Raiders middle who work hard for each other... The middle is lacking. We have the players, but the structure is not there.

    Similar story for our edges to be honest. Our right edge can make holes with SJ there. But our left has struggled betwen Leuluai and Hoffman. I don't know why, but it has.

    The finger can largely be pointed at the coaching though, because it's the same problem on defence. Very rarely do the warriors have line speed which gives up field position to the other side and makes space for the opposition halves to wreak havoc.
     
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  18. Jordan G
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    Jordan G Warriors 1st Grader

    I think it comes back to everything we do being predetermined for the most part, which in turn brings me back to the fundamental lack of brains/football smarts our team has.

    Everyone knows Manu will be hit up 2 90% of the time and they line him up as a result. Do something different FFS.

    Everyone knows from a scrum that we will have a decoy amble forward and pass to one of our propbacks so they rush up on that guy. Do something different FFS.

    Everytime we go wide we our optiobns are resticted to short ball to the second rower or outt he back to the fullback who will either run out of room or get a centre/wing to cut back inside. Do...something...different...FFS

    SJ almost never gets the ball at first receiver unless he's kicking, he's essentially playing a second fullback or a Michael Morgan style five eight which doesn't suit him at all IMO. Do something different - FFS.

    Just do something different.

    FFS.
     
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  19. Jordan G
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    Jordan G Warriors 1st Grader

    I actually wouldn't go as far as to say the structures are poor. They're just not good enough to break down good defenses. The structures are basic, limited, and as a result so is our game. I don't think Cappy can take those structures any further which is why we need a change of coach.

    On the flipside of that however, IF (big if) we get the right coach next time around I think we'll see a drastic improvement because the basic structures are already ingrained into the players by now, all we need is someone to come along and show them how to take it to the next level, but if for whatever reason the next level isn't working we have that basic ingrained structure to resort to.

    It's like anything really - most things that are presented as "rules" are generally more like guidelines, but you need to understand the rules before you can break them. If nothing else Cappy has hammered the "rules" of basic structure into them. They just need someone who can take it beyond that.
     
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  20. eric
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    eric 1st Grade Fringe

    I was thinking about Packer earlier and how he used to turn at the line slightly and pop it out the back. We never see anything like that anymore. Neither do we see short balls like Packer, Mateo, and even Luck used to put up for Maloney & Locke to hit the gap at speed.